posted 11/12/09 12:03 AM | updated 11/12/09 12:09 AM
Views: 1275 | Comments : 12 | News, etc.

12th Ave-Broadway streetcar loop route proposal gets important backing

By jseattle
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County councilmember Larry Phillips (Photo: Jeff Romeo special to CHS)

With an agreement in place between the city and Sound Transit to move forward with the project and a change about to take place in the mayor's office, the political maneuvering and public process to define the route for the new streetcar line that will run from Union Station through First Hill to Capitol Hill is taking shape.

Central District News reports that King County councilmember Larry Phillips, whose district includes Capitol Hill & First Hill, is one of the first politicos to take a stance on the route.

According to CDN, Phillips sent a letter to mayor Greg Nickels and city councilmembers back in October advocating for the 12th Ave option -- specifically for a loop route that would run on 12th Avenue in one direction and Broadway in the other -- to be included in the city's study of viable routes:


The proposed 12th Avenue and Broadway loop is a promising concept for serving a greater number of residents, creating a north-south public transit option on currently unserved 12th Avenue, and catalyzing economic development on vacant and underutilized properties in the area. Further, as you know, King County government owns and operates the Youth Services Center - King County's Juvenile Court and Detention facility - a significant regional facility located along the 12th Avenue corridor. Currently the site is highly automobile-oriented, featuring a large parking lot which the community is interested in seeing re-devleoped into a denser, more pedestrian and transit oriented facility.

The recommendation should have impact. Phillips is also a member of the Sound Transit board of directors and chair of the Central Link Oversight Committee. While the city will be in charge of planning and building the line, Sound Transit is paying the construction bill.

First Hill advocates have already voiced their opposition to a 12th Ave loop alignment saying it would decrease the utility of the line for First Hill residents and workers. Some in First Hill say a Boren alignment would best serve their community. Here's a look at some other possible alignments for the new line.

A final decision on the streetcar route will be made by the city council in early 2010 with a goal for the line to be operational by 2013.

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Brownbag Discussion Today!
If you are interested in learning more about this Streetcar and its possible routes, Great City will be hosting a brownbag discussion today from 12-1:30pm at GGLO at the Harbor Steps (1st and University). Should be a good time!
Comment by JoshMahar
10 months ago
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slow slow SLOW!
I cannot BELIEVE how long it takes to get any transit built in this city. Portland's light rail Green Line began construction in 2007 and was completed in 2009. That's 29 light rail stations - over twice as many as our entire light rail system.

It takes 2 years for Portland to complete a light rail line with twice as many stations as ours (minus the tunnels of course), but it takes us 3 years to complete a piddly streetcar? This is ridiculous.
Comment by misha
10 months ago
( +1 votes ) Recommend this
RE: slow slow SLOW!
Thats a bit disingenous Misha. The two year construction phase includes no planning , which has been going on throughout Portland's 30-year light rail history. Also, much of the Green Line was already constructed as part of other lines; the green line really just filled in the gaps.

That said I agree it would be awesome if we could get this stuff done quicker. But then, that would take a much stronger, powerful government and that is a whole other can of worms.
Comment by JoshMahar
10 months ago
( +1 votes ) Recommend this
RE: slow slow SLOW!
If the process speeds along, consultants make less money. Paying those very inflated fees is the reward to friends from the political system.

"We're in no hurry, the money comin' in"

First line of the song.... from the monthly sing along on the top floor of city hall.
Comment by Mike with curls
10 months ago
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Problems with 12th
I was a fan of the 12th ave idea when it was first proposed, but I have realized there are several problems with it:

--It breaks the promise to first hill that they would get a connector to the light rail stations.
--It doesn't run by the hospitals, which seems like a very important driver of ridership and a big convenience factor for people.
--The loop here is too big, 3 long blocks between directions. That means lots of people will live near one direction but not the other, making it less useful.
--The Cedar River pipeline runs under 12th, making the east side of the street unusable for the streetcar.

Because of these reasons I think the Boren alignment is best and we should push for a 12th ave streetcar in the future, maybe to connect to the proposed CD streetcar.
Comment by Zef Wagner
9 months ago
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RE: Problems with 12th
"It breaks the promise to first hill that they would get a connector to the light rail stations"
—No matter the alignment, the streetcar will not substitute for the deletion of the First Hill light rail station. It will provide connectivity, but not with the level of service demanded by First Hill, unless a dedicated ROW is established and signal priority is planned. In which case, Boren proves problematic—it has the highest traffic volume over a 24-hour period (which I would speculate occurs within a very condensed time frame) and it has the narrowest ROW of any street affected in the various alignments

"It doesn't run by the hospitals, which seems like a very important driver of ridership and a big convenience factor for people."
—How much ridership will the hospitals really produce? Do you mean employees or patients? I am of the mind that a truer driver of ridership on the streetcar will be how well it serves the entire community adjacent to the streetcar.

The loop here is too big, 3 long blocks between directions. That means lots of people will live near one direction but not the other, making it less useful.
Yes, the distance between the directions is a bit larger than what is ideal, but keep in mind it's the short ends of three blocks and not an insurmountable distance by any means (~1000 feet). A loop route greatly increases the area served by the streetcar, and I would speculate that people who would not otherwise use the streetcar if it ran in a single corridor would end show more
Comment by dang
9 months ago
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RE: Problems with 12th
3 blocks is long? No wonder there are so many fat people in the U.S.
Comment by --
9 months ago
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RE: Problems with 12th
You raise important questions and they need to be addressed by the SDOT assessment so the decision can be made on the best information. For example, to what extent will a streetcar connection that runs by the hospitals' front doors and travels to light rail at Broadway/John (or the S.T. station at Union Station) be quicker or more convenient than the existing bus connections that travel to and from one of two 3rd Avenue S.T. light rail stations directly to Virginia Mason, Swedish First Hill, or Harborview? (In addition to the 5 or so "regular" Metro routes, the hospitals help pay for some express routes that travel during A.M. and P.M. peak periods.)
As for the walking distance between 12th and Broadway ---Do go to the site and assess it for yourself. Yes there will be some people for whom the distance is a deterrent and it cannot be denied that that detracts from the usefulness of the loop/couplet. And whether the distance is "long" or "not so long" is in the eye of the beholder. But the amount of time it takes to walk between the two streets might surprise you.
Comment by Advocate for considering 12th
9 months ago
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RE: Problems with 12th
To address some of these replies:

--The hospitals and clinics will be a huge driver of ridership on the streetcar, guaranteed. They are major employment centers plus they serve large numbers of patients and patients' families. All the people in capitol hill and the ID who want to go to the hospitals and clinics would probably take the streetcar if it went right through first hill. This just seems like common sense.

--Yes, the streetcar is no replacement for a First Hill light rail station, but how is that an argument for not having it on first hill at all? It still works as a link, as people in first hill going to UW can catch the streetcar to the cap hill light rail station, and first hill people going south or east can take the streetcar to the ID station. It is the best solution there is and it was promised to those residents. There is a fairness issue here that will not go away with any amount of justifications for a 12th ave routing.

--I live near 12th and walk to broadway all the time, so I know it is not very far. However, the issue is that for someone living on 15th who wants to go south on the streetcar, they have to walk 6 blocks, and conversely someone on summit who wants to go north has to walk 6 blocks. Many people will just give up and not use it. Anytime I have seen loop streetcars, they are never more than 2 blocks apart and that is rare, usually they are 1 block apart.
Comment by Zef Wagner
9 months ago
( +1 votes ) Recommend this
a)stay on subject; b)First Hill is distinct from 12th Ave [LIVE/WORK/PLAY/GLOMonto1stHILL]
Zef thank you for opening a decent can of worms with some good basic points:
the core issues in choosing THIS route are about purpose, not technicalities nor ease nor expansion into grey areas of what might be called by real estate marketers 'First Hill-ish'- In other words: The promise morally and legally must be kept, regardless of ease, width or traffic. Otherwise, you're just repeating (salting the wound) the disappointment that ST/Light rail already produced once.
Establishing this streetcar route must not be about '12th Ave interests' changing the nature of the first discussions. I'll grant that while Seattle U and juvy hall have density, the 'clients' at Juvy aren't doing a whole lot of light rail riding (and the drivers parked there? will still need cars in the nature of their work, even with light rail there). Also, a substantial number of SU students are housed either in walking distance or actually ON campus in dorms.
If 12th Ave wants a more pedestrian-friendly feel, that's great - but it's an Entirely Separate Conversation from "How do we replace the first hill light rail station that was lost". (besides, the reality is, 12th is an arterial -THE most Mobile north-south arterial on cap hill, aside from bellevue (and (ha) broadway) - connecting cap hill to two freeways - it will likely never resemble a pedestrian paradise).
The purpose of the streetcar route, the heart of the matter : must be about serving First Hill (residents, workers, churchgoers, shoppers, show more
Comment by Rev.Smith
9 months ago
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Councilmember Phillips et al have valid points on 12th's need for transit, but...
Dang, et al: On the subject of hospitals,
a) the answer is 'Both' - both employees and clients should be expected to use transit if either live on the light rail route. Considering the diversity of land value along that route, I dare say both will certainly ride.
b) I can think of no better definition of a no brainer: that clients of hospitals (and there are 6+ med centers/hospitals on first hill, vs the ONE east of 12th), (not to mention large old houses of worship & cathedrals, and a museum, and a couple private schools)might be more likely to need a shorter walk to transit. Sick, injured, infirm, pregnant, whatever - the (average) pool of hospital patients are less mobile than the (average) teen/20's students and able-bodied SU staff. The density of the senior housing, high rise condos, dense apartment buildings (affordable and not), several large hotels, and high rise office/medical space on first hill (proper) makes a route like Jackson-Boren-Madison-Broadway stand out as a better use of mass transit and an excellent answer to the original purpose of a streetcar -that not everyone wanted- to begin with.
If Boren's traffic is so bad, doesn't that seem like a hint that there's a need for transit in that corridor? If you take away a lane of idling SOV cars and replace it with a streetcar holding 50+ people and using (I'm assuming here) no gasoline, which is the better design?
Just take a look at maps.live.com and use the bird's eye view - compare the view of show more
Comment by Rev.Smith
9 months ago
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Capitol Hill Streetcar Route
Gotta hand it to Sound Transit when they roll out a project for public comment - maps, diagrams, lots of staffers to answer questions and chocolate chip cookies. However, let's hope lots of citizens don't let them fail by routing the streetcar on 11th. We must press for the route to stay on 12th all the way to Denny. 12th is growing. There is increased density. More apartments and condos. More businesses. And 12th is closer to more section 8 housing and other shelters. It would be a waste of money and opportunity to route the streetcar up 11th.
Comment by Janice Van Cleve PCO 43/1858
6 months ago
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